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Re-enable elytra in the overworld? Poll is created on Feb 01, 2021

  
  
  
Poll results: Re-enable elytra in the overworld?
Voter(s): 26
Poll is created on Feb 01, 2021
Yes!  -  votes: 13 / 50%
13
50%
No!  -  votes: 9 / 34.6%
9
34.6%
Yes - with restrictions  -  votes: 4 / 15.4%
4
15.4%

Elytra in the Overworld and you!

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Azher
(@azher)
Admin / Senior Dingus Khan Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 17
 

We talked for about half a year about removing the Elytras to some degree before we actually ended up doing it.
We knew that no matter how we did it, that some people would dislike it.

The reason why I voted NO, was because I was for and still is, for the elytra's being either removed or limited is that:

In my opinion, the Elytra is an overpowered item, both in vanilla Minecraft and even more so on Eldin.

From my personal experience with elytra's, I would compare it to if we gave every single player an infinite amount of money.
People would have fun with it at the start and spend money on full diamond gear, buy a bunch of land to build whatever they want, and so on.
After a while, people would get bored, because there is no challenge to it.

In my eyes the Elytra is way too good for what it is, it removes some of the challenges from Eldin that makes it Eldin what is my image of what Eldin is.

My main issue with the elytra is how fast you can travel from A to B
as already mentioned by Cerb, it made the world feel smaller.

Posted by: @cerberus402

Elytra cause the world to feel smaller than it actually is because you can travel so fast.

People would go settle where they build their base and only go to the specific places they needed to go to (Other cities to sell items for example)

Limiting the Elytra makes it so that you have to have that journey to the destination you have to go to. - Or pay for you to get there without effort.
Who knows, maybe you see a cool small city or other things on the way.

There is no doubt in my mind that elytra's are a problem. If you have suggestions as to how we improve this without touching the Elytra, I'm all open ears.

And even if it makes people travel less often, it still makes the times you actually do, that more noteworthy.
It's not like travel is hard without it, DT and PA is a thing. Horses or even walking is good and especially with roads
(It's almost like we added roads as a tax building for other reasons than just giving tax 😉 )

We went through a lot of different ways to try to limit/disable elytra's, and the current one is the best working one.
If we could disable some enchantments, would be the solution I would want the most. along the lines of what Captain Sylus mentioned

Posted by: @captainsylus

I submit that we add Elytra back to the map with the restriction that they cannot be enchanted or, at the very least, they cannot have mending.

This could maybe be worth looking into again.

Spoiler
Disclaimer
Just because I'm staff does not mean I know what I'm doing.

This post was modified 12 months ago 3 times by Azher

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Moana_Of_Motunui
(@moana_of_motunui)
New Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 4
 

@cerberus402 "It is much easier for all of you to get an elytra than for people of a different wealth level. Think it's kinda tone deaf when you classify an elytra has an 'investment' or 'expensive' when you don't have to make the choice between an elytra or having a home / city." Sorry if this was a bit confusing, but when I brought up the Elytra being an investment (and me, being at prince level with around 800k left, 50k for a good elytra w/ all the enchantments is still a huge investment in my books). I don't normally go around spending that much money lightly, especially with all the other expenses I have to worry about like building materials, and the other buildings in the city etc... Furthermore, I thought the elytra being so expensive with the fireworks on top of all that was what sort of balanced it out, I.E. not everyone being able to obtain an elytra right away. --but it could always still use more balancing, as like you and a few others said it is a very fast method of travel. Anyway, just wanted to clear that up in case that's what you were talking about when you said you thought we were tone deaf. 🙂 


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Awesomebrendan
(@awesomebrendan)
Moderator Moderator
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 38
 

As I have been a semi-active Minecraft player since 2013 I feel I can offer an interesting perspective on this.

Backstory: I joined Eldin as a new player in late 2016 in the map elytra were added, however, due to them being a newer item road networks still partially ruled and I remember just exploring the large towns of Braavos in awe of the creativity of this community. I never managed to obtain an elytra, I did not know how to make tb back then and they cost 30k+ in that map. As an Australian I have also struggled to use elytra due to my internet issues, this has meant I have had to find other ways to get around the world of eldin. I support and always will support large road networks for this reason, roads have allowed myself and many others to travel to different towns all around eldin. Sadly, the road networks that once dominated the server have dwindled over the ages until this map, this has been due to ice roads pre-Hollowtide and elytra, the result has been fewer and fewer roads leading into this map.

My Perspective: I fully support the removal of elytra from the server due to the dwindling of these road networks from the server and have been pleased to see the revival of roads aided by the Ring Road project this map. I get the speed argument many people are making, however, in my opinion I believe that elytra were far faster than what should be possible in survival mode, when making my map recap videos I discovered they were close to the creative sprint flight speed. I also feel that horses are underutilized, I have timed it and was able to get from Snostad to Loot Lagoon in 20 minutes on horseback while going a far from optimal route. Elytra have weakened the sense of adventure and exploration on eldin that was so powerful in my early days as a new player and therefore I support their removal in the overworld.


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Azher
(@azher)
Admin / Senior Dingus Khan Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 17
 

@moana_of_motunui

An armor set that costs 1 million trade bars that would make you invincible, would still be OP even it's hard to obtain, is it not?

I don't think Eldin having some sort of balance for the price of elytra's is the correct way to go about it. The item itself needs to be balanced if we don't want it to overpower other aspects we love about Eldin.

The cost of an Elytra also goes significantly down with the ability to transfer items from map to map with guilds


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Moana_Of_Motunui
(@moana_of_motunui)
New Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 4
 

@azher I definitely agree with the point you made there even though I don’t agree that the elytra is as op as invincible armor, I get the point. I would definitely take a elytra with restrictions if it meant I could fly with them again, I really miss gliding and what not. 

 

I’m not sure if I mentioned it in a forums post or on the discord, but I think if elytra was allowed back in the over world it should not be allowed into the vault, unless it was nerfed to the point where that didn’t matter anymore in somehow...

 

Lastly I just want to say that I understand that you all, being staff, test and put careful thought into these situations before you implement them, and of course I and i’m sure almost everyone who cared enough to participate in this forum post appreciates the time you guys put into this game. 


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cerberus402
(@cerberus402)
Member Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 227
 
Posted by: @moana_of_motunui

Sorry if this was a bit confusing, but when I brought up the Elytra being an investment (and me, being at prince level with around 800k left, 50k for a good elytra w/ all the enchantments is still a huge investment in my books). I don't normally go around spending that much money lightly, especially with all the other expenses I have to worry about like building materials, and the other buildings in the city etc... Furthermore, I thought the elytra being so expensive with the fireworks on top of all that was what sort of balanced it out, I.E. not everyone being able to obtain an elytra right away. --but it could always still use more balancing, as like you and a few others said it is a very fast method of travel. Anyway, just wanted to clear that up in case that's what you were talking about when you said you thought we were tone deaf. 🙂 

I still think that this take is missing the mark. How does an item being ungodly expensive balance the scales in any other fashion than to those that can afford to throw money at it? It very heavily favors those with disposable Trade Bars. The average amount of liquid Trade Bars (not tied up in land) that a player has is 68,136.59. Going with your original 60k figure, that's 88% of the actual money they have. If we take your current holdings (the liquid Trade Bars you have on hand to spend how you want) of 837,270.86.. then you'd spend 7.2% of the actual money you have on hand. Doesn't that just highlight my earlier statement of the rich get richer, quicker.

An elytra flies faster than a staff member in /fly. I actually had to continually teleport to people to keep up with them when they were flying. Is that not absurd? That you can move faster than people with legitimate staff tools? You could legit be anywhere on the map faster than any staff member without /tppos could get there. You get to spend 5 minutes selling an inventory full of items (lets not bring up how expensive shulkers were before I made them respawn in the end), rather than ~30 minutes another player might have to spend using PA / DT / walking. Someone's entire day on Eldin could just be traveling to sell their goods, but since you can afford an elytra it's hardly a measurable impact on your play time (city is built faster, money is made faster, etc). Like.. you have the kind of money that you could PA to a city daily and socialize with people across the map.. for an entire year and it'd only be 13% of your 830k (or 4.5% of your total 2.4M).

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree and that's totally cool. I don't know any other way to try to illustrate how your purchase of an elytra is not the same as an average player; and this is only talking economy wise. Like I said there are more impacts than just money (pvp, pve).


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MrWhiteShadow
(@mrwhiteshadow)
New Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 4
 

Okay I'm also going to put my 2 cents in here too because I'm sick of everyone blowing up the discord over this.

 

I'm all for bringing the Elytras back to Eldin in the Overworld. Is it overpowering? Yes, But other then PvP and saving 300TB what is there really to lose? Parkour? Minigames? Run an event with them and ban items like elytra and tridents etc. to properly complete the challenge. If someone chooses to fly to the top, that's on them and if that's what satisfies them, then good on them.

I'd be a liar if I said I still used the PA & DT the same amount if Elytras were brought back because obviously that's untrue. However, Me personally. If I was travelling to a city that was across the map and didn't have either of those travel points, I would use PA to the nearest city and use the elytra the remainder of the way. But if I'm going 1000 blocks away, obviously it's more convenient to use the Elytra.

More to the point now, I personally think that if they were brought back, there should be some type of ultimatum or choice that would need to be made in order for you to think twice about using the Elytra. Whether it be some type of fee for a use every time you leave the ground with it or a 300tb fee a day something along these lines. I tend to try NOT to use travel as much so I can save coin. But sometimes it's just practical. I personally would love to see the return of Elytras to the overworld, but much agreed with the staff and some other players, there needs to be a bit more of a balance, so instead of us just throwing bull crap excuses " It already costs us so much to put mending & purchasing the Elytra" etc. Lets help them come up with solutions or different methods? Otherwise were going to keep going around in circles. Cerb IS right when he says ultimately it's up to him. But I feel like it's fair to say that, if there's a common ground and it keeps the balance of the economy afloat. Then why would their be any reason to not bring it back. The game becomes boring if you have everything and money isn't an issue etc. Hence why there's a "COST" of gameplay, Building a city? City buildings you must purchase and that money is not refunded at the end of the map. We all need to understand that, this is how the economy stays alive and keeps everyone moving, Otherwise, the rich players (not speaking for all) would get bored and move to another server. 

So lets stop making excuses or whining like a bunch of school kids, and lets start coming up with SUGGESTIONS. Don't get sour if it's a crap idea, hell, some of you probably thought the fee of using an elytra is stupid, I agree, was more so using it as an example. But I think we really need to come up with proper, structured solutions, and I'm sure the staff will be willing to work together on this if it doesn't throw the whole server off.

 

- WhiteShadow


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Moana_Of_Motunui
(@moana_of_motunui)
New Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 4
 

@cerberus402 I don't think that completely balances the scales at all (although I did say that the investment does balance it in some way, but that it still could use more balancing). I think that it makes more sense, that people who made a bunch of tb and put time into the game should be the ones that can have that luxury of having an elytra (ofc i'm not saying that we should be the only ones to be able to have one). That's it. But I also understand, with what Azher said, that the elytra is still fast and OP even if it is expensive. Even though, it's not as fast as an instant teleport like the PA which is not 30 minutes of travel time unless the city you're going to doesn't have one. PA is balanced out with a more expensive price of travel, but that's still an instant teleport which is faster than horse and dt. I think elytra DOES need some way to balance it out, but I still don't think it should be completely deleted from the overworld.

You once brought up how elytra's deter people from going to smaller towns? Sorry, but I don't see how that makes any sense. In my experience people are going to go sell their items at the towns that have the higher tier markets. Also, in my experience last map when I actually made use of my elytra I went around for the first time and visited all the towns (a lot of little towns that I thought looked neat) that I found interesting that did not have a PA system. Also for pvp, I usually feel safer with an elytra from people like Pinkle because I know I can fly away to a safe place if i'm in danger. 

Also, I like the world being small because I think it brings the community closer together. With the new guild system, which I really love btw, I feel more involved with players online than ever before. I think elytra also had a certain affect like this to a degree.

I am curious though, elytras are faster than speed 1 of /fly, but can you not speed up the fly (/speed (number))? I know that's not the point, but I don't think /fly was ever meant to be a method of fast travel in minecraft in general.

This all said I can see where you're coming from, but from another perspective:
I am a large city owner, I have large plans, I also have a life where I have to take care as I'm sure many others on Eldin do too. I love building, and I love the community and Eldin allows me to do both (elytra or not), which is why I love playing on Eldin. The economy system is also super unique. However, these come with expenses. Hminer knows this more than I do i'm sure. Everything costs money. (i'm not complaining). Materials take a huge chunk out of our expenses when we're building on the scale that we are doing this map, we estimated over 60,000+ sandstone just for our town hall building which comes at huge expenses. Yes we got some of it ourselves, but now that the town is expanding we do not have the luxury to spend time on gathering resources anymore when it comes down to balancing in game playtime and real life maintenance especially if we want to finish our plans by the end of this map. I personally have 2.4 mil in total as you mentioned, which means i'm barely balancing on the edge of King & Prince, i'd like to keep my King rank.. Aka I'm not going to PA to a city every day, I still manage what I use my money towards even if it's 300 tbs. But I also have to purchase mats, buy the town buildings, build the buildings, claim the land... etc etc When i'm finished claiming the land this map, all 832,000 tbs I have left over will be gone. It's expensive and takes a lot of time that I might not have or want to spend taking a long time to travel around the map. This map to me feels too big and overwhelming. I've had many instances where i've needed materials, found sellers, but they did not want to come to me to sell because I was too far. The port authority which we are working towards in Moselle is a gigantic building that will not be done for a while. While I know that's a personal problem, this is just my personal POV on why I favor in the elytras defense.

This post was modified 12 months ago by Moana_Of_Motunui

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NeoTokyoNora
(@neotokyonora)
Active Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 14
 

I voted No. And the reason why is much like why Hoff thinks they should stay removed. I would have leaned towards yes-with restrictions, however I think the type of restrictions I would like to implement, I.E. No Rockets/Tridents isn't really being looked at as a compromising factor, so I solidified on just  flat out no. 

Do I want solutions, yes? Should people be able to cheese minigames, even if its their prerogative? Sorry, but no. Our staff works so hard to enrich the gaming experience for all walks of player. Cerb has spoken multiple times about how what seems fair to what is essentially the elite, is not fair to the masses. Trust me when I say our whole admin team has lost entire nights of sleep trying to figure stuff out for ya'll and this was not a change that they made lightly. They really did look at all methods of adjustment before settling on this. 

We love our player base and the community it supports. This is something we will progressively talk about from time to time at meetings. There are many things they are trying to prioritize though, and the reality is Elytra often get in the way or pose major otherwise unsolvable challenges to those priorities. 

So many new players have joined recently, and none of them have really mentioned this as an inconvenience... This is a common practice on more RPG based servers, which is the direction we are heading. Eldin isn't a good old boy's club. Just because its convenient now for those who can just toss 20-30k  or toss a 10-20 dollar dono isn't fair to new players/land owners who are doing the grind but haven't yet gained the luxury of expendable Trade bars. Elytras have made this game easy...Really easy. I've gotten better at monster hunting(and incidentally pvp dodging =p) because I've had to walk everywhere. I'm being challenged, and as a result my gaming experience is less stagnant. I'm getting less bored with Eldin and Minecraft because things are taking more time and achieving goals is more satisfying. I love the roads that have returned this map. Its the lifeblood of community engagement and I'm thrilled to see it thriving. 

My plot doesn't have instant travel, or even dragon travel... and I'm on the opposite side of the world from everyone else. Do I miss the Elytras? Actually, no not really... I have more fun running my roads, and dodging arrows. I'm one of the most isolated players right now, really far from pretty much everyone with my closest connection being Schnitzel. I still rarely use their PA, I still would rather run my horse if I can. 

Why don't I miss the Elytras? Everything became easy mode, as I've said. I could tolerate one of the most aggressive pvpers being in my city back during Abita Cove, because I could just riptide everywhere and I was virtually safe from any threat, unless I was a dingus and hit a tree or something. If you flew high enough, that was never an issue either. I see using Elytras as an exploitive method of travel and if it was to make a return, it should be heavily HEAVILY restricted in such a way that doesn't favor the financially fortunate. I think restricting it to end ranks, may still do that. So I'm not necessarily on board with that either. 

Are they fun? Yeah... when you're doing things like fishapaloozas, or maybe doing a Elytra ring puzzle or something. And in a way I'd still love to see that. Like I said in the discord, as a gliding machine they're fine... balanced enough I think, maybe limit mending too... or keep it I don't care... But adding rockets and tridents to make them virtual fighter jets just kills the rest of the game. There is no challenge, and there is no satisfaction for me when I'm not challenged. 

I know a lot of this post is just my personal preferences. I think the rest of the staff has spoken enough on the behalf of the server as whole. I just felt like sharing some personal reasons why I don't mind them being disabled in the overworld.

I've trained three different horses to level 20 in like a week because I keep accidentally killing them =p Its really not that hard to do. (Hint: if you need a fast horse fast, find a beach with some splash speed potions. always able to hydrate your horse and flat stretches to get the mileage quickly. Thanks Zig, for this tip! =3) 

I hope many more people put in their opinions and suggestions. I really like to see this type of communication happening. 

Thanks for reading!

Nora~ <3 

 

Synthwave is best genre, don't @ me.


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Pinklewilly
(@pinklewilly)
New Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 4
Topic starter  

This may be a little off topic but I keep seeing the "elytra will ruin minigames", won't the berserkers axe also cheese minigames? What's the solution to that?

Overall I understand the arguments being brought forward against elytra. I'm glad they are still enabled in the end / nether and I think that's an okay compromise. One thing we could consider in the future is having a "late-game" in the last 2-3 weeks of the map where it's elytra are enabled. The player count is usually really low - I don't think it would break the game, and it would be wicked to fly over spawn, darkmoss, ect. and see it from above.


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GoldenPepper
(@goldenpepper)
New Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 3
 

My opinion is coming a little late, but here it is. I voted yes, with restrictions, but after thinking about it more if I could I would change it to no. I’m not going to really say anything long because all primary points have already been brought up, and read. So I’m mostly here to offer a possible compromise, that could make everyone at least a little more happy, so here it is. Along with possibly adding /horse summon, I think an addition of a /city could be extremely useful. This would be for city owners only, and would, well, tp you to your city with the 45 minute cooldown. So now you could have an extra option of transportation for a total of 3 (/home, /g home, /city), along with being able to summon your best horse, for the less expansive trips. There’s my opinion on it. Thanks to all who read.


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Azher
(@azher)
Admin / Senior Dingus Khan Admin
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 17
 
Posted by: @pinklewilly

This may be a little off topic but I keep seeing the "elytra will ruin minigames", won't the berserkers axe also cheese minigames? What's the solution to that

True, But we don't really have a fix for that atm.

Posted by: @goldenpepper

I think an addition of a /city could be extremely useful. This would be for city owners only

City owner ranks currently have a lot of benefits so we don't really want to add more to that rank tree. 

If you want multiple teleports, may i suggest the Dragon-Lord or Shadow-King rank? - link to ranks

 


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